Keep replacing fuel pumps. 3 pumps in last 3 yrs.

[b92082]

My Defender HD 8 is 3 yrs old.  It is used exclusively on my horse property to carry hay and manure.  I never walk out in the morning without wondering if it will start.  When it does, I don't shut it off.  My experience so far is I would never take this out to the desert.  My dealer keeps saying it is the can am fuel pump.  He says they are junk. Keep replacing.  I would never recommend it.  If anyone a tip or two, I'd appreciate a come back.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andystoy19]

I would suggest you take it to another dealer or ask him to place a claim under BRP care and see what they may come back with but seeing as your dealer deflects all responsibilty I suspect that will be a waste of time.

I have not had a defective fuel pump since I bought my first quad from BRP and there are a few that fail prematurely but not 3 in a row. You could try and find another fuel pump off the net but I suspect they may all come from the same place.

I believe that the fuel pumps require fuel for cooling, have you run out of fuel at least once per pump?🤔

[Andystoy19]

Have you noticed if there is a noise (vacuum or pressure) when you open the fuel cap? If yes you may have a defective vent line valve or a defective inlet air valve. They are located on top of the fuel tank and come off the top of the tank that is unscrewed to replace the fuel pump. You can see the cap when you raise the bed its on the passenger side.

You stated that you don't shut the engine off after starting it in the morning so my guess is the tank and the fuel in it get fairly warm especially when you mention the desert, that would create a higher pressure in the tank than is normal causing the tank to ballon if the vent valve is not working. There are two lines coming off the top of the cap one contains the vent valve and the other is the inlet line. My guess is that it is the vent valve that is defective and either are very cheap to replace compared to fuel pumps?😉

[pmbaseball24]

19 hours ago, Andystoy19 said:

Have you noticed if there is a noise (vacuum or pressure) when you open the fuel cap? If yes you may have a defective vent line valve or a defective inlet air valve. They are located on top of the fuel tank and come off the top of the tank that is unscrewed to replace the fuel pump. You can see the cap when you raise the bed its on the passenger side.

You stated that you don't shut the engine off after starting it in the morning so my guess is the tank and the fuel in it get fairly warm especially when you mention the desert, that would create a higher pressure in the tank than is normal causing the tank to ballon if the vent valve is not working. There are two lines coming off the top of the cap one contains the vent valve and the other is the inlet line. My guess is that it is the vent valve that is defective and either are very cheap to replace compared to fuel pumps?😉

You bring up an interesting point here.... I’m curious what your thoughts are. I don’t mean to hijack this thread, maybe it is somehow related to Bill’s problem...

My defender threw an engine misfire code about a month ago. Checked everything out, and it all seemed fine. I did decide to replace the fuel pickup prefilter just out of precaution. It was a little brown which is understandable considering the desert areas we ride in. Fast forward to last weekend and my fuel gauge started showing abnormal levels. I know the tank was full and topped off pre-ride. It started reading half full and down to empty at one point. We got back from the ride and it took 2 gallons to fill it back up. I double checked that the alignment marks were correct on the pump, so that should eliminate the possibility of the float being obstructed or getting stuck in a certain position on the side of the tank.  I remember unscrewing the gas cap before I pulled the pump this last time and there was definitely pressure in there. I’m assuming it was positive pressure blowing fumes out instead of sucking air in. Your comment on the pressure build up made me wonder.... the clear breather hose coming out of these units... are they supposed to allow air in and out? Or is it more of a one way valve? I took the white plastic filter piece off the hangs above the air box and I could blow air in the clear tube but could not pull any air out. This was tested with the gas cap off.  It makes me wonder if my recent issues could somehow be related to abnormal pressures in the tank or a breather tube not functioning properly. Thanks for all your insight Andy! 

Edited March 10, 2021 by pmbaseball24

[Andystoy19]

I have attached a picture from the manual to help clarify what we are looking at since it labels the parts.

1) Under the box that has the number 2 next to the tie wrap is the pressure relief valve that has a directional arrow on it. It is supposed to release pressure build up between 0.36 and 1.1 psi. When the pressure starts to build as the fuel warms up and starts to expand the check valve #1 (it is directional) will close to prevent fuel spillage out of the air inlet line. The pressure valve opens and lets the vapor escape to normalize pressure in the tank. The vapors go out through the line up over the air intake box and down under the right rear corner of the cab. This may be why some people smell gasoline fumes occasionally.

2) After the Y in the tubing (to the left) the first round object is the air inlet check valve and the other cylindrical white object is the air inlet filter. Both the relief line and the inlet line run together until the top of the air filter box in my machine and the air inlet filter is mounted right next to the air inlet for the air box.The air inlet filter is at this height to prevent accidental water ingestion into the fuel system and should flow in either direction but cannot allow air in when the inlet check valve is closed.

3) The air inlet system will allow air flow in at any time except when the inlet check valve closes  because of pressure build up in the tank. If the inlet check valve failed in the closed position the air would not flow into the tank when it was cool outside or we were using enough fuel to create a vacuum in the tank. Visually check both lines to make sure they are not kinked where they are held by tie wraps.

4) If the pressure relief valve is not working correctly and releases pressure above recommended maximum the result will be increased pressure on the fuel pump and tank components and increased pressure at the fuel pump which may be a factor in shortened service life of the pump???

5) If you are having concerns about the fuel system the easiest check is to pay attention when you open the filler cap to see if there is a puff of pressure or a sucking sound, an indication of a vaccum. Pretty wordy but hopefully helpful?😉

[pmbaseball24]

Thanks! This gives me some things to test out. As always, your help and knowledge are much appreciated.

[pmbaseball24]

Still having an issue with the fuel tank pressure. Went for a ride this weekend (getting warm out here in AZ, probably 95 degrees when we were riding) and I heard a whine coming from the engine area when we took a break and the engine was at idle. Lifted the bed and it was coming from the tank. Unscrewed the filler cap and it instantly blew pressure out the tank and the whine stopped. I verified that none of the lines are pinched in any way. Is there any way to test these one way valves on the breathing system? Also had a few periods of smelling fuel vapors during the ride. One would think if pressure was building and it wasn’t releasing at all, no fumes would be smelled? Thoroughly confused at this point. Has anyone had any of these issues or know of any tests to see what is going on?

[Andystoy19]

IMO your pressure relief valve is working but it is noisy, I have the same noise issue on my 2013 Outlander and have not replaced the valve. As I stated in my April 24 post the maximum pressure to open is 1.1 psi. it might be cheaper to replace the vent valve if you are concerned?🙂

[A hunt 2 remember]

Has anyone with the issue tried leaving the fuel cap loosely tightened... say to the first click of tightening... just a thought.. 

Not necessarily a FIX but maybe a resolve until it can be addressed more in depth. Atleast that way you could get a decent day of riding without starving the rig...

[A hunt 2 remember]

It sounds as if your vent is plugged up. The fumes you smelled could be coming from the vent after it builds enough pressure to actually vent off the tank...(well more than normal) and those are the times you smelled them? As Andy stated, I think the vent unit would be my try... maybe even pull it and take it to an automobile parts house and see if they have any ideas about a different route to take achieving the same thing... or just try another OEM unit... 

[HD10XTPBads]

For all you Defender owners.....

It's not always the pump....HOPE THIS HELPS OTHERS.

Sometimes it wouldn't start the first time, then it would start sometimes after multiple attempts, then it would quit, then it would just crank and not start.  

Thought it was the pump, bought the rebuild kit and then took it apart, step by step.

When I got to the pump, is when I discovered that I'd have to solder the wires and I paused and looked at everything.  Good thing I did.  

I was able to slide the pump out and start inspecting things.  So I'll get right to it.  The rubber O-ring on top of the pump (seals it to the supply line) had expanded (worn out) in the 2018 Defender HD-10 XTP.  Basically, I checked the fit of the O-ring and it seemed loose, so I tried the new one and it was snug.  So I put it all together and it works!!!!!

Piece of crap OEM O-ring worn out in just three years!!!!  CAN AM SHOULD REPLACE THEM FOR FREE-once you know it takes maybe 30 minutes and a cheap O-ring!!

TIP- If you hear the pump running when you turn the key on, it likely works, but if the O-ring has expanded and lost it's seal, then you won't get fuel.

HERE'S THE TEST ---- Remove the crimp on fuel clamp on top of the sending unit, pull the fuel feed line off the pump unit/sending unit.  Install three feet of fuel line (hose clamp it on-in case there is pressure) into a gas can, and turn the key.  If you have strong (not a drip-should be squirting out like a horse piss'n) fuel flow, then it's not the pump or the O-ring.  If the pump runs, but no fuel, I'd bet it's the O-ring.

Now I just need to get rid of the check engine light (machine runs great now)

Info follows to help, if you proceed down this road.....

You only have to remove the air cleaner, 2 bolts behind the passenger seat and of course the hoses, two hose clamps.  the short hose on top, I disconnected that and left it laying near by, because it had a breather hose zip tied to it.

Sending/pump unit screw on ring- it's tight, I used very large channel locks.  My first inspection I was able to remove the sending/pump unit without disconnecting the feed and breather hoses.  However it is much easier to install the retaining ring without the hoses in the way.(why? - because you have to hold down pressure on the sending/pump unit and the hoses are a bit in the way, also, BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO CROSS THREAD THE RETAINING RING-IT IS A LITTLE TRICKY, CAUSE IT'S NOT EASY TO GET THAT FIRST THREAD GOING.

HOW TO GET THE PUMP OUT- (ONCE THE UNIT IS OUT OF THE TANK

Leave the fuel strainer attached to the pump- there are snaps circular around the plastic case, I started on one side and used two little screwdrivers and worked around it by undoing in a circular pattern, holding (kind of tilt pressure, to keep them from re-snapping), and then the it slides apart.  There is a rubber pad on the bottom of the pump, if it sticks to the pump, it's easier to put back together if you pull it off the pump and put it in the plastic sleeve that goes over the pump.  When the pump slides out, there is a plastic cap, that is inside the sleeve of the unit (you may see the O-ring, between the cap in the sleeve and the top part of the pump case).  I was able to get the pump out of the sleeve carefully by not pulling too hard on the wires (but to get it back together, I put the cap inside the sleeve, slid the pump in half way, and then pushed the pump into the cap and used needle nose pliers to put the O-ring on the pump shaft and push it on with a small screwdriver.  (There was not enough slack in the wires to put the cap on the pump and then the O-ring on the pump shaft and then, slide it into the sleeve.)

IF want to change the fuel strainer, once it's out of the sleeve, I used two small screwdrivers and pried the little metal retaining ring off the shaft, which is all that holds it on, place a rag over it to keep it from flying away.  There was a metal ring around the original strainer, that I removed and put on the new one.  This possible helps the plastic from expanding too much when putting on the pump.

Last thing- I had bought the rebuild kit, with shipping around $90 (which had an O-ring in it) REMEMBER - this rebuild kit requires connecting the wires (there are wire crimps in the kit, but since it's in the fuel cell, not sure about that method) cause the OEM wires are soldered.  I would think that removing the unit far from the tank on a ventilated workbench and then soldering the wires would be the way to go, but may someone can vouch that crimping wires in a fuel cell is OK? IDK/I wouldn't do it.

I haven't searched for just the O-ring, but likely dirt cheap

If your pump is bad (not running when you turn the key, and you've checked for power at the pump), a complete unit ready to drop in is more expensive, between $179 and $350?  (plug and play)

Good luck!

I wonder how much money Can Am service is making on piss poor O-rings, gouging for new pumps when not necessary?

[Andystoy19]

Good write up, the fuel pump should put out 51 psi +/- and if you hear the pump cycle stop and cycle again without attempting to start the engine this might indicate a fuel leak in the system, such as described above.

There is no place to hook up the test guage to test fuel pressure it has to be done inline between the injectors and the fuel rail.🙂

[2020Lonestar]

I want to thank HT10XTPBads for his post...I just purchased a lightly used 2020 Hd10 last week that only had about 23 hours on it. After the first couple of days, it started sputtering a little when I first took off from a stop, as if it wasn't getting enough gas. Once I started going it seemed fine. Then the next day it was a little harder to start, would turn over a few more times before it came on. Also started noticing that it would sputter at higher speeds, not just from a stop....Longer story short, I found this thread and started looking into it. I took out the pump and replaced the o-ring with one I found in a variety pack at Auto Zone. Runs perfect now!

 

That O-ring is obviously a very critical part of the fuel pump and if it does not have a tight seal then you won't get the proper fuel psi.

[Hkb82]

My 2019 defender has also made the sound from the pressure relief valve when my tank gets hot and pressurized. It’s done it from day one so I’m not to concerned. Usually only notice it on really hot summer rides when I pit stop or park the buggy. I just pop the gas cap to shut it up lol. I’m in Canada so I’m far from desert like conditions. I’ve always just thought it’s working if I hear the noise lol. Can’t hear it when it’s running maybe cause it’s pulling fuel or just so quiet.  I have never had any fuel smell or running/starting issues.  
The start of this post with three fuel pumps in a row sounds suspect on dealers part. 

[Majorpayne]

On 3/10/2021 at 12:27 PM, Andystoy19 said:

I have attached a picture from the manual to help clarify what we are looking at since it labels the parts.

1) Under the box that has the number 2 next to the tie wrap is the pressure relief valve that has a directional arrow on it. It is supposed to release pressure build up between 0.36 and 1.1 psi. When the pressure starts to build as the fuel warms up and starts to expand the check valve #1 (it is directional) will close to prevent fuel spillage out of the air inlet line. The pressure valve opens and lets the vapor escape to normalize pressure in the tank. The vapors go out through the line up over the air intake box and down under the right rear corner of the cab. This may be why some people smell gasoline fumes occasionally.

2) After the Y in the tubing (to the left) the first round object is the air inlet check valve and the other cylindrical white object is the air inlet filter. Both the relief line and the inlet line run together until the top of the air filter box in my machine and the air inlet filter is mounted right next to the air inlet for the air box.The air inlet filter is at this height to prevent accidental water ingestion into the fuel system and should flow in either direction but cannot allow air in when the inlet check valve is closed.

3) The air inlet system will allow air flow in at any time except when the inlet check valve closes  because of pressure build up in the tank. If the inlet check valve failed in the closed position the air would not flow into the tank when it was cool outside or we were using enough fuel to create a vacuum in the tank. Visually check both lines to make sure they are not kinked where they are held by tie wraps.

4) If the pressure relief valve is not working correctly and releases pressure above recommended maximum the result will be increased pressure on the fuel pump and tank components and increased pressure at the fuel pump which may be a factor in shortened service life of the pump???

5) If you are having concerns about the fuel system the easiest check is to pay attention when you open the filler cap to see if there is a puff of pressure or a sucking sound, an indication of a vaccum. Pretty wordy but hopefully helpful?😉

Is this picture from a service manual? Where can I get one?